4DP vs Half Monty results

Full Frontal (6 May) - FTP 261, MAP 336, LTHR 167 (max 174)
Half Monty (16 Sept) - FTP 259, MAP 325, LTHR 161 (max 173)

The LTHR from FF implied a max of 175+ (and I’ve hit 180 in the last 2 years) but I couldn’t get near that on races this year. I also struggled with MAP sessions in workouts - 336 felt high. So the updated results from Half Monty feel about right. Not bad to see a slight drop as I’ve been doing unstructured training across the summer (messing about on the mountain bike :slight_smile: )

All purpose road plan now loaded up, will do another half monty at the end of it to see the results


Thank you for the responses.

My pacing on the 5 minute MAP effort was pretty consistent. I held my speed and power pretty steady the entire 5 minutes and just barely held on until the end of the 5 minutes.

And of course, now that I’ve posted all this, I was gifted a new Kickr Core and that has seriously changed all my numbers and my training. I have just a week and a half left in my training plan, so I’m going to wait until the end to do a new FF 4DP test. It will be interesting to see how my numbers change from testing using virtual watts to much more accurate real power using my new Kickr Core.

What I’ve found so far is that sprinting power and recovery power are far different animals when comparing real power to virtual power.

I’ve long felt I had no sprint power until I realized that hitting really high virtual wattage was nigh impossible since power and speed are pegged to each other on a manual trainer. Now that I have a true power meter I’m seeing much higher sprint power numbers which is heartening. Nothing World Class, mind you, but at least easily higher than 502w.

Conversely, I used to find it very easy to spin out at 115-128 virtual watts which was around 11-12mph. A typical active recovery session at 115w would get me somewhere between 5.5 to 6 miles in 30 minutes. Now, on the Kickr Core, 100w is 14.5mph and 115w is over 15mph. My active recovery sessions are now getting me around 7.5 miles. And they definitely feel a lot more difficult.

I am still hitting my same FTP numbers (255w) in my workouts. So, I’m wondering why the recovery efforts seems to be so much more difficult.

Anyway, I’m rambling off topic. It’ll be interesting to see my new 4DP numbers in a couple weeks!


Hey - no such thing as rambling - and congrats on the new trainer. All makes complete sense by the way :slight_smile:

You’ll massively enjoy having that accuracy I suspect, and your timing is impeccable having a 4DP coming up too so that the next block can be based on whatever that gives you - have fun when that 4DP comes along :slight_smile:

1 Like

I finally got around to re-testing today, probably hard to tell because it’s been a loooong time between tests, but I think the Half Monty is over-estimating by a fair margin.

4DP in March (so 6 months ago) I was riding long and slow at the time, 300-600km Audaxes, etc. So not much top end.

FTP-298 MAP-353 AC-488 NM-963 LTHR- 164
Time-Triallist (ie equally bad at everything!)

Half Monty today
FTP-351(+53) MAP-426 (+73) LTHR-169 (+5)

Based in Melbourne, so been in lockdown most of that time, did a fair bit more long-slow stuff the first few months, a 3 day 1,200km trainer ride, couple of vEverestings. Then the past couple of months have got into racing crits. Have been on Volcano training plan, and then just picking a mix of Suf videos since to fit around events/target rides.

The best 20min power I’ve seen in a race is 331w, and best 5 min is 387w. Both felt like my heart was about to leave my body, so I’m thinking these Half-Monty numbers would actually kill me if I tried to hold them… :man_shrugging:

1 Like

Only one way to find out.

to be hinest -0 if you’ve been training really hard, your body is adaptable (obvs dep on allsorts of thnigs like age / body ability ti build / lungs etc … then you never know - certainyl sounds like a lot of TSS in the last 6 months !

1 Like

I did my very first Half Monty yesterday and felt it was much easier to pace than the Full Frontal Fitness Test but I am not as confident in the provided results.

My rider type at the moment is Pursuiter and as @Coach.Mac.C already stated, it can produce artificially high numbers. I guess I am in this group.

My stats after my last Full Frontal (July 23rd):
MAP: 350
FTP: 260
LTHR: 154

Half Monty results (October 4th):
MAP: 358 (+17)
FTP: 293 (+33 !!)
LTHR: 160 (+6)

I have to admit I was absolutely in the zone for the test (good prep week, good nights sleep, nailed my nutrition and hydration beforehand) but don’t think these numbers are sustainable during my workouts for the next couple of weeks.

What did I do?
I cut every progress in half (maybe that’s why it’s called Half Monty :wink:).
I did Defender today on adjusted numbers (MAP +8, FTP +16, LTHR +3) and barely made it out of the session alive. It was glorious and absolutely spot on.
During my last week of the ongoing training plan I will let the next Full Frontal test do the talking and I’m already interested in the results.


SUF says I’m a Time Trialist / Rouleur. The first time I did HM (6 months after by first FF) my FTP dropped 7w. But then 6 weeks after my second FF I did my second HM and my FTP went up 20w. So, I have no idea if that is purely because of increased fitness, rider type, or the difference between HM and FF tests.

1 Like

Adding to my post last week, just did FF today to test the numbers.

FF 6 months ago:
FTP - 298
MAP - 353
AC - 488
NM - 963
LTHR - 164

HM 10 days ago:
FTP - 351(+53)
MAP - 426 (+73)
LTHR- 169 (+5)

FF Today: (vs previous FF)
FTP - 328 (+30)
MAP - 407 (+54)
AC - 545 (+57)
NM - 1045 (+82)
LTHR - 166 (+2)

So for me (time triallist rider type) I’d say HM definitely over-estimates. I feel like I could’ve hit some bits of the FF slightly harder today, but not to the point of adding another 8% to my FTP like HM suggested.

(Also pretty sure I undercooked my MAP effort in the original FF, being new to proper training, and not having anything to base it off).


Ok, so this morning I just completed my 3rd Half Monty. It was also my first HM on a Smart Trainer.

This was a strange one - but not really that surprising when I look at my recent activity and fatigue levels.

I just completed my Metric Century plan on Saturday by riding 100 miles (yes, miles. Because I actually completed the 100km 4 weeks prior on the 3 hour 45 minute ride day, so I decided to push myself.). See my parenthetical note as to how that came about. :slight_smile: Anyway… So, I have definitely been feeling the after effects of completing that 100 mile day. Saturday I wore compression socks for hours after my ride. Sunday my legs were very sore and I just lounged around. Monday I started my second day of the HM-FF Double plan (I want to see the difference between the two and I also want to get new numbers both because I just finished my Metric Century plan, but also because I have a new Smart Trainer that’s now 3 weeks old and it’s a completely different animal power-wise from a dumb trainer - especially the AC and NM numbers). So, I did the Cadence drills on Monday which helped work some of the kinks out of my legs. Today I was still not feeling fresh, and my legs were still tight and sore, but not as bad as yesterday. I’ve actually been feeling tired for a few weeks and trying to get more sleep when I can (including naps - and you know i’m tired when I nap because I never nap). So, I went ahead and did HM today, knowing that because of tired legs and fatigue from Saturday’s 100 miles I may very well drop some of my numbers. I accepted that as a possibility.

Well… that lead to some interesting results, today. I worked hard on my mental strength and positive self-talk and pushed myself further than I expected. My MAP went UP 7 points to 302. It’s gone up in every test - FF or HM - since April. My LTHR, however, went down from 157 to 153. Based on these initial numbers I was pretty sure my FTP was going to go down. And sure enough, it did, from 255 to 248.

Yet, I’m pretty sure the only reason my FTP went down is because my LTHR went down. And I’m pretty sure the only reason my LTHR went down is because I am still feeling the fatigue and after effects from Saturday.

According to my Garmin 735, my resting HR all last week was:
Sun 42, Mon 46, Tues 45, Wed 49, Thur 51, Fri 49… and then after my 100 mile ride… Sat 57, Sun 51, Mon 52, and so far today 51. So my resting HR seems to still showing my fatigue. So, it’s not surprising that my FTP dropped despite my MAP going up since the FTP calculation is partially being based on my HR. In my last HM test with an LTHR of 157 my HR range for the constrained effort was 145-150. This time was a lower LTHR my HR range was 140-146. So, even before completing the constrained effort I knew my FTP was going to go down.

Will be interesting to see how my fatigue levels are this Saturday and how my numbers are affected when I do the full-fledged FF. At minimum, I need to get new NM and AC numbers from the Smart Trainer because the NM and AC numbers are definitely not comparable between a dumb trainer and a smart trainer. And hopefully I can actually complete the 1 minute test correctly, this time, on my 3rd try. If my MAP is now up to 302 then I know my AC is definitely not 316. :laughing:


Oh hey! This is a great thread!

I recently started using SUF and had been doing some of my own stuff in the past, using zwift intervals picked out on what I thought to be worthwhile. I had been using the zwift ramp test to keep track of progress.

I did my first 4DP test (FF) last week:
FTP: 209
MAP: 264
AC: 458
NM: 1200 something.
I don’t really care about the NM number because I have no interest in training that indoors. Outdoor value was 1313 5sec when tested at the end of a hard ride. I’ve had jumps in the 1450 range. TLDR: not what I need to focus on at all. It’s worthless having a sprint if ‘the race is up the road’ so to speak.

Result: Attacker

I did a zwift ramp test after a suf workout because the 4DP adjusted ‘The best thing in the world’ workout felt a bit meh. I didn’t feel like I worked all that hard on it, same for blender.

In any event, here are the zwift ramp test results:
Ramp Test 1: 8/27- Zwift says FTP 215
Ramp Test 2: 9/9- Zwift says FTP 224
Ramp Test 3: 10/8- Zwift says FTP 244

I realize that I’m a pretty anaerobic/quick recovering ‘turbo’ engine so to speak, i.e. absolutely not a TT’er diesel type, but these results are pretty different. I know I’m pretty anaerobic because when I used to race in college, I was pretty sprint and short effort focused. Looking at old notes from then (weight 150), my top 5 sec was in the 1300’s and my best 30 second effort was just short of 1000 somewhere in the 900’s and was 1000 till about 26-27 seconds in. My point is basically that a traditional ramp test will overestimate my FTP because of the 75% of last minute formula. But even using the low end of the range (70%), the ramp test will still put me at 225 or so.

Given all this… is it reasonable for me to attempt a half monty next week? I tried doing one this morning but pulled the plug because I wasn’t feeling it mentally after doing an SST workout late last night. I’ll be off the bike the rest of today and tomorrow.

I figure it’s worth a shot to try the half monty and see how that approximates things, right? I’m currently pretty awful at pacing. During the 4DP FF test, I did think the 20 minute effort I did was challenging and didn’t really think I had much left in the tank but it was also the first 20 minute effort I’ve done since I started riding again.

Thanks for any insight!

Okay, I did a Half Monty on Tuesday and then followed it up with a new FF today. And now… I’m really confused.

I thought I had my rider profile all sorted out. And even tho I’ve switched from a dumb trainer to a smart trainer I thought I had everything dialed in. Now? I’m not so sure.

I think I have a couple ideas of what happened. First, here are my results.

Half Monty results from Tuesday:

That was 3 days after my 100 mile (yes, mile) ride at the end of my metric century plan. Also my first HM after getting my smart trainer. You can see my old NM and AC numbers are legacy Virtual Watts from my dumb trainer, so ignore those for now. My FTP went down from 255, but so did my LTHR because I was still fatigued from Saturday. So really, my FTP is about the same since it’s just my fatigue that’s making my FTP number lower.

Now, here are today’s results:

Everything up, except for my FTP which dropped 20w.

I nailed the first 2 sprints. Then I nailed the 5 minute test. Nailed it beyond my expectations. It was hard and I wasn’t expecting to get even 302 since my highest MAP in a FF has been 283. But when I started it didn’t feel has hard as I expected. At the 3:30 point I was pretty sure I was going to get at least get 302 it was just a matter of how long I could hold on. For the last 2 minutes I was chewing stem, but every time I looked up my power was at or above 302. When I finished I was at 326, so I knew I nailed the MAP portion. The question was how it was going to affect the 20 minute test. And unlike my last FF, this time I didn’t feel that burning heat-burn feeling in my throat. So, I was expecting decent numbers for the 20 minute part.

Last time my legs felt toasted from the 5 minute test and I struggled with the 20 minutes and I ended up dropping 2 watts. This time, however, it was way worse. There was no burning in my throat. It was all in my legs. I just couldn’t hold a steady pace at any wattage. I was all over the place. Less than halfway thru my legs were so toasted I had to soft pedal for a few seconds. I ramped back up but died again around 7 minutes. After that I tried as best I could to hold any pace over 200watts. But I was still all over the place. It was my most miserable 20 minute test ever. I thought about abandoning it a few times, but forced myself to push through it and work as hard as I could so I could get to the 1 minute test and get real 1 minute numbers from the smart trainer.

Then I did the 1 minute test and it was not only the first time I ever actually completed it, I managed to somehow hold over 400 watts up until the last second. My legs were burning like never before, but I gave it all I had.

My LTHR is back up to 157 and my HR was looking higher overall, so my recovery from my 100 miler was definitely helping.

So, what happened?

Well, this might be part of it. I started a session of FF, but stopped after 5 minutes because I realized it’s been almost 2 weeks since my last smart trainer calibration, so I stopped to do a spin down. This took almost 20 minutes because of Bluetooth connection issues between the apps. First i tried to just pause FF while I did the calibration. But that didn’t work because the Wahoo app would never notice that I hit 22.4mph. I was pushing hard to stay up over 23mph 2 or 3 times and the Wahoo app wouldnt start the spin down. So I ended up having to close both apps, restart my phone, disconnecting and reconnecting my smart trainer. Then once I finally got it to work and calibrated, I had to restart FF from the beginning. So I used up some gas getting up to 22.4mph or higher at least 3 times - plus the extra stress. So maybe that contributed by putting out too much effort before my FF?

Am I still fatigued from my 100 mile ride? Or from doing HM on Tuesday? I was easily able to hold 220w in the constrained portion of HM on Tuesday.

Did I overcook the 5 minute portion? My MAP from Tuesday was 302, but I got 311, today.

I’m 44, so I’m not young, anymore, but I’m not that old, either.

I’ve never had an issue holding an effort for the full 20 minutes, before, even at a lower wattage. I’ve always been able to stick it out in my other two FF’s and all 3 HM’s. In my previous HM (August 19) I held 240-245w for almost the entire constrained portion. This time I was toasted and just couldn’t do it. It just seems out of character based on how I perform in all my workouts. And instead of saying 228w is my new FTP I really feel like it’s actually a failed 20 minute test? Is that possible?

My weakness has always been repeated efforts. Now my weakness is supposedly sustained efforts? But I actually usually excel at those workouts. All the workouts now being recommended to improve my weakness are ones I nail and enjoy like Thin Air and It Seemed Like Thin Air and The Wretched. I just came off the Metric Century plan and was doing a lot of tempo and sustained Z2 efforts. I love Defender (it’s probably my favorite workout) and when I did it at 235 FTP I was riding at 10-20w higher in level mode even during the last set. That was on Aug 13 right before I did HM on Aug 19 which bumped my FTP up to 255. I can’t imagine my FTP actually dropped from 248 on Tuesday to 228 today. If I decide to do another HM next week I’m sure I’ll bump my FTP right back up. Should I do that? Are my legs just fatigued from the Century Plan (intermediate) and from doing 100 miles possibly sooner than I should have (1 week ago)?

I know the FTP workouts are going to be too easy at 228. They were too easy at 235, but were feeling about right at 255. I feel like I should bump it back up to at least 248. Should I manually bump it back up? Should I do another HM? Did I overcook the MAP portion? Ahhh!!

When I did my FF back on July 4 I felt tired and sluggish during the 20 minute portion and even tho I was expecting (based on how I was performing in all my workouts - that I was going to bump my FTP up higher than 237, but instead it dropped to 235. Yet, even then, I was still able to fully complete the 20 minute session without stopping. It really does feel like my weakness is repeated efforts rather than sustained efforts. heh.

Any thoughts from the coaches? I’m thoroughly flummoxed. I thought I knew exactly what kind of cyclist I was, but now I’m thoroughly confused my today’s effort.

One thing that stands out, you calibrated between the HM and FF, so if your trainer was out then the HM result could be questionable.

You can’t over do the 5 min section, unless you go out way to hard and fade, which it didn’t sound like you did.

I’d start a new plan, or try a few workouts over this weeks and see how they feel, and consider a new HM (with a calibrated trainer!) either next weekend if the workouts feel wrong, or at the end of your first recovery week if it feels ok.

Hi there.

Sounds like a busy week :slight_smile:
And a successful one (as riding outside for 100 miles is what we do this all for I guess)
So you can give yourself a massive thumbs up for weeks for that one !!

Depending on your capacity to recover, and how hard you beat yourself up in that century, I’d normally suggest waiting longer before following up that with two tests.
(In my case you’ve a decade on me in my 50’s so I need longer to recover though)

I think what I’m ‘hearing’ is your legs were basically toast by the time it came to the 20mins in the 4DP?
But your heart/lungs were fine? (Relatively)

I’d guess your legs have maybe had enough after a massive outdoor ride following up by two tests.

And I’d now (probably frustratingly) just ‘do some riding’ for a fortnight or more before contemplating a full 4DP prep week (if you’re keen to test again)

In meantime I’d take an estimate of your ftp and use that. It kinda looks to me that you know roughly what that is anyway

Then when 4DP comes along again do the FULL prep week (without a century ride thrown in 7 days previous)?


That sounds about right. And my 100 miles was actually indoor on the trainer rather than outdoors. I did “It Felt Like Thin Air” on repeat at 80% for just under 6 hours. :slight_smile:

I was worried that doing the HM - FF week right after my 100 miles may have been too much. Thinking more and more that was the issue. And then my trainer calibration debacle just compounded the problem. I was really eager to get new numbers from my smart trainer since I hadn’t done a test since before I got it. Probably a bit too over eager.

All the other numbers are good to me. It’s only the FTP that’s questionable. I likely don’t need another 4DP test for a while and can wait another 12 weeks before I do another. I can always do another HM in 6 weeks if I feel my FTP number feels too low.

I already have this week as a planned recovery week after my FF, which my legs really seem to need more than anything at the moment, anyway. :slight_smile: Think maybe I’ll do some easy running and easy cycling this week to give my legs a break.

1 Like

Sounds like a grand plan for this week.
I doubt I’d retest in that scenario either. I’d manually peg FTP at an appropriate number and then wait 12w

1 Like

The only issue with it is that your rider type, strengths/weaknesses will be incorrect so the training plan won’t be optimal for you. Even if you manually adjust your FTP, the app will still take your FTP to be a weakness and MAP a relative strength, and will plan workouts according to that, regardless of what number you set for your FTP.

1 Like

THat’s a good shout that of course applies every time a 4DP doesn’t go to plan - it wouldn’t overly worry me that much but it could certainly annoy people I’m sure if there’s a specific goal

1 Like

True. But maybe this is a blessing in disguise. Maybe I do need work on my FTP efforts if the one part of the FF test that seems to give me trouble are the 20min efforts, even if I do seem to enjoy them the most in my workouts. All my MAP focus workouts definitely seem to have worked as my MAP has increased in 6 months from 273 to 311. And I won’t complain if I have to do Defender and Thin Air more often instead of Violator. :smile:

(Can I put in a mini plug for someone to help answer my question above in addition to the question posted by emac? Thanks in advance!)

1 Like

I’m a big fan of 4DP to set the baseline.
Can you describe what your week was like before you did your 4DP?
Any chance you had any fatigue in you by 4DP day (reason I ask is it can be a common thing - I have done it myself)

So I’d be tempted to put some sort of temporary plan in for now, get a bit used to what works for you and what doesn’t, then do a 4DP prep week and test.

Probably in a few weeks time.

1 Like