How many 4DPs have you done?

Yes, if I recall correctly this is written in some FF article as well. It’s more w’ or hie for that matter. But SUF doesn’t adjust the recovery times based on your w’, hie, ac, however you want to name it, it just adjusts the watt targets. But as I said, you don’t actually need an AC/NM number for 99% (ok, 95%) of the catalogue.
I’ll agree that it is a useful assessment if you don’t know if your repeatability is a strength or weakness though!

I’m a big fan of erg myself. However, almost all (I’ll admit, not all) NM/AC workouts are meant to be done in level mode and be executed as all out efforts (See workout descriptions).
You can’t be “defeated” by all-out efforts in level mode, you can just bail (which is worse and does indeed deserve serious flogging :stuck_out_tongue:
I totally agree that workout completion rate is the best test anyway :+1:


What is w’ and hie?

Not enough. But yet again too many.

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Basically it’s just how wko/trainingpeaks (w prime) and xert (high intensity energy) try to measure repeatability.


I do not race, so I do not worry about my AC/NM numbers per se, but repeated efforts do come up in my riding (up and down hills that do not necessarily “roll”).

The only time NM might matter, is if I want to get through an intersection before the yellow light turns red.


I’m at 19 (but only 1 this year). Plus the half a gazillion times a week some of us had to endure during the early testing :hot_face:

My absolute favourite part of the test is the 60s all out at the end, the prospect of which is usually the only thing that gets me through the 20min effort. I’m disappointed, when I care to care, that “4DP” doesn’t properly use the insight learned from that part of the test but, hey, the workout targets are just a guide not an absolute - old school non-erg rules! :slight_smile:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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@Heretic Yeah - I can understand that. For me it is a focus because I generally ride MTB - especially single track climbs.

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i like to use the NM and the AC to gauge progress and form. Agree that the workout target is less important when so many of the efforts are best done in level mode. But in particular the 1 min at the end tests an aspect of fitness that WKO5 doesn’t, unless you want to spend some time customizing those fatigue resistance charts and set up your own test. The WKO5 FRC is not exactly testing the same thing, as far as i can tell. It looks to me like it rather estimates the size of your battery based on how much power you can put out fresh.


I stop at green lights because a cyclist might be coming the other way.


One this year. 12 in total.

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I live in an urban area. If I stopped at every green light I would never get anywhere at any real speed.

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I live in Chicago. I was joking, but I do slow down at all intersections, because there’s inconsiderate pedestrians, kamikaze cyclists, and impatient drivers everywhere. All unpredictable. But at least the bus drivers are courteous.


I have only relocated in Sufferlandria since last fall, and thus far I have done 5 X 4DP and 1 X 1/2 monty

here for the numbers and the pain


I have found that the best way to deal with drivers is to “behave like a car”. Be predictable, and do not do stupid stuff. Most of the time, I am riding fast enough with the flow of traffic that pedestrians do not interfere. The pedestrians, the electric scooters, and the skate boarders often make the physically separated bicycle lanes useless.

What annoys me the most is bicycle riders that do not even try to follow the traffic laws (nobody is perfect).

There is a way one street in front of my house. Not only do they go uphill against the flow of traffic, but because there is parking on their right, they ride up on the their left side. That, of course, is the right side of the traffic coming fast around the corner at the top of the hill. An accident that will happen one day.

(Note: People in countries such as the UK, Malaysia, and Japan, reverse the sides).

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11 times since June 2018
One in March of this year two weeks after the TOS. The prior one was Dec 2020 before starting the TOS prep plan.
Every 3-4 months is typical for me, but events are moving targets this year so I’m just doing my best to optimize quality training time with the numbers that I have. I’m running on all-time PRs except for MAP, and the short rolling TTs that I’ve been doing every other week will push that metric and pacing them is an exercise in understanding and pushing my limits. I’ll schedule my next FF in late August or early September.

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Just did my 3rd of the year and 6th overall, this morning.

One of my best and worst ones ever.

I dropped my chain at the beginning of BOTH sprints! So I did the only sensible thing… I rewound the video to try again. And I dropped my chain AGAIN! So… I rewound the video for a fourth try. This one started out good, but I dropped my chain a FOURTH time, but this time at the END of the sprint - which was not my best sprint since it was, of course, my fourth try.

The mixture of dropped chains and being tired really messed with my head. I just didn’t want to suffer any more this morning. But, I did it, anyway. I did SOOOO many mental gymnastics to get myself to the end. I wanted to quit SOOO badly during both the 5 and 20 minutes sections. BUT I DIDN’T. And I managed to match my highest MAP score every from the HM I did last week. And I nearly matched my FTP from HM, as well. Only 4w below. But I’m going to chalk that up to doing 4 sprints. That, and my son distracting me by walking in at 6am with 11 minutes left in the 20 min effort and me yelling at him that it was too early and to go back to bed. Father of the year award there, folks. :man_facepalming:

However, I had NOTHING left at the end. I was worried about dropping my chain during the 1 min effort, so I try to build into it rather than start out sprinting. That didn’t help. That was the longest minute ever in my life. Longer than in any of the other FF’s I’ve ever done. I got out every last drop of power I had, but still my AC dropped 14w. Despite being in the best shape I’ve ever been in the bike, my AC is now 40w lower than my best ever AC. I’m going to chalk that up to the 4 sprints and dropped chain, too. After the 1 minute effort all I could muster for the final cool down was 30w at 35rpm. Just barely keeping the pedals turning.

Yes, I have suffered today.


@emacdoug Congrats! Next time give your son a role - have him tell you how super fast and strong you are and how you are going to smash the test.

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It’s funny you say that because he came it at the end of my Half Monty last week and he was emphatically repeating all the words of encouragement to me from the video at the top of the ramp.

It would’ve been a lot more awesome, except I had just blown up and stopped pedaling and was actually waiting the 15 seconds before I could fast forward past the rest of the ramp. lol.

Maybe if he comes in at 6:30am instead of 6:05, next time I do Full Frontal. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: :expressionless:

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